L Wittgenstein commanding officers and units in Austro-Hungarian Land Forces 1848-1938 Forum

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L Wittgenstein commanding officers and units

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jeroenmark	L Wittgenstein commanding officers and units	Lead	[-]
Posts: 31 Mar 20 08 8:23 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : wittgenstein Hello to All I try to find out more about Ludwig (Pauls brother) Witttgensteins war service in WW1, especially the history, combat history, commanding officers and subordination of all units he served with. Here I list some units Weichselflotille Krakau Art werkstatte der festung Krakau feldpostnr 186 Art werkstatt ZugI feldpostnr 12 (Sokal bei Lwow?) Art schule (?) Olmutz FHR 5/4 feldpostnr 286 where? Geb(irgs) Kan Btt 5/11 feldpostnr 290 where? gefangenlager Italian Who can tell more about these units, especially the field art units (in combat) the divisions and frontabschnitt, part of the fronts were they saw action? He was said to have supported 1 and 3 and 10th Armee? which guns did use the units above? Any help very much appreciated Jeroen
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jeroenmark		#1	[-]
Posts: 31 Mar 26 08 3:41 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	After Ludwig voluntary enlisted august 7th, 1914, he was send to Krakau to serve with an artillery unit (which?). 10 august he got his uniform, he was said to support or serve with 1 Armee in the august/september operations but was posted on a ship on Weichsel river (Goplana), and returned to Krakau november 5th, 1914. What were the tasks of the art werkstatte, to support only the festung artillery or also the fieldartillery units? All units of a corps or even armee? That unit later became mobile, on train wagons and was near Lwow. Was it officialy renamed, or stayed the same? Did such reorganisation (into mobile units) took place with other werkstatte? at other front parts? Ludwig wanted also to serve with a balloonunit (abwehrballon?), which such balloon units were active at Krakau/Galicie/karpaten late 1914, early 1915? Or with A-H army? December 23th 1914 he was promoted to militarbeambter!? From march 1916 until august he fought with an art unit in support of 7 Armee in Rumania, which unit and where exactly? which artillery regiments were with 7 Armee at that time? Where these artillery units dissolved after Brusilov offensive? After becoming a vormeister and corporal he was send to Olmutz (HQ of ...? or ...schule) to become a an officer. Was He returned to the front january 1917 as an officer to serve with an art unit in support of 3 Armee, where and when? In sept 1917 he was with Feldhaubitzregiment 5/4 (5th bt from 4th regt?) How many howitzers, what type were with 5bt? How many officers in such a haubitzenregt? For his bravery near Lidziany/Ukrain(?) he was given a "silver medal", what was official orden he received? 1 february 1918 he was promoted Leutnant. March 1918 he was posted with a gebirgs art unit (5/11?) with 10 Armee (?) at Italian front south east of Trento. Was that 5bt of 11th Abteilung? Which type of gun, how many in 5bt? Who can help with any of the questions above? Regards Jeroen Mark
klemen		#2	[-]
Posts: 485 Mar 26 08 7:21 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hello Jeroen, Ludwig Wittgenstein enlisted on 7th August 1914 into the 2nd Fortress Artillery Regiment (FsAR 2) in Krakow and reached the front on 19th August. Later he served with 4th Battery of the 5th Feldhaubitzregiment, which was headquartered in Olmütz. The regiment was later re-named into the 105th Feld-Artillerie Regiment (FAR 105). In 1918 he was attached to a mountain artillery regiment (Gebirgsartillerieregiment - GAR). I think it was GAR 11 or GAR 13. The answers to your questions are hidden in the book by Paul Engelmann and Ludwig Wittgenstein titled "Letters from Ludwig Wittgenstein, with a memoir". New York: Horizon Press 1967-68 or even better Brian mcGuiness "Young Ludwig: Wittgenstein's Life, 1889-1921". You have there his military career in details. Interestingly, during an action on the Piave in 1918 he was proposed for a Golden bravery Medal for the Officers but one of the independent witnesses Oberst Dezner objected the effect on the enemy was too small, so he received instead "just" Military Service Medal with Swords. Check for both books at Google Books. BTW: I have read that his brother Kurt, also an officer, committed a suicide in October 1918, when his troops disobeyed his order. Anyone know which unit did he serve with? Klemen
jeroenmark		#3	[-]
Posts: 31 Mar 26 08 8:31 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks a lot Klemen I will surely look into these books, but like Ray Monks biography on Wittgenstein and a lot of other books I have or have read people are more interested in his philosophical thoughts and works and not his military career or any afinition with the subject, information is rather sketchy, and I would like to construct a more complete picture about his units, about what he does not write about in his secret diairies, and hope specialists like you Klemen, could help a hand. Again thanks a lot, can you add something to the more specific questions? Did Wittgenstein want to serve with a balloonabteilung einer Festungsartillerieregiment? At Krakau? Przemysl and Lvov had already fallen in russian hands, which Festartregt s were or was at Krakau festung? Regards Jeroen mark
jeroenmark	mortar	#4	[-]
Posts: 31 Mar 26 08 12:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So in august 1914 with FsAR2 Ludwig received instruction on a mortar. Does anyone know which mortar types (or other guns) were with that regiment in august 1914, how was that unit made up? Were to find such information? In 1916 Ludwig was at the frontline with 7 Armee to support a unidentified division north of XI Corps, south of Benigni Group, later incorporated in VII Corps. Does someone know which division was supported by the art unit Ludwig served with in that area, regional location is identified as Okna(?), Starokrynicznyi(?), Luzhany, later Kolomyia. Does anyone know the correct german name of the mobile (trainwagons?) medical unit (hosptal) Dr Max Bieler temporarely took command of that was located at Sokal railwaystation for some months collocated with Ludwigs werkstatte? Thanks for any help Jeroen Mark
klemen		#5	[-]
Posts: 485 Mar 30 08 12:31 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I will surely look into these books, but like Ray Monks biography on Wittgenstein and a lot of other books I have or have read people are more interested in his philosophical thoughts and works and not his military career or any afinition with the subject, information is rather sketchy, and I would like to construct a more complete picture about his units, about what he does not write about in his secret diairies, and hope specialists like you Klemen, could help a hand. Forget those books. Try to obtain Brian McGuiness' book which dedicates a special chapter to his service in World War I. here you can find some sample pages and even photographs of Ludo in his uniform. At Cracow he was first isntructed in the working of an antiquated mortar and then in that of a searchlight (his regiment had a searchlight detachment) on a small river gunboat captured from the Russians. The boat was called the Goplana. The book has a photo of it. Check this link for further details. URL: http://books.google.com/books?id=KeEt-SZEaVgC Did Wittgenstein want to serve with a balloonabteilung einer Festungsartillerieregiment? At Krakau? Przemysl and Lvov had already fallen in russian hands, which Festartregt s were or was at Krakau festung? I could find no evidence that he would ask for a transfer to a balloon detachment. Just a searchlight detachment. He was interested in the aeronautics, though. For other questions I am afraid one would need to check whether there exist the war history or fond of FsR.2 in the Kriegarchiv Vienna. Your questions are too detailed to be answered. However, on the other hand there are hundreds of books about Austro-Hungarian Artillery in World War I, so you can check with them first. You may start with this one. URL: http://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=476476&Language=de
jeroenmark		#6	[-]
Posts: 31 Mar 31 08 7:54 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Klemen Indeed I ordered the McGuiness book and am curiously waiting for it. About artillery books, I am happy there are many, but I silently hoped some specialists at this excelllent site would be aware where to have a more specific look, who is a truly artillery spec here, Christian Frech? I myself was only trained as an occasional art observer and gunship close combat attack controller? Is there a polish or non polish member who is a specialist on Krakau Festung? Is there an artillery museum with bundesheer or elsewhere in Wien or Krakow? Thanks for the link I will have a good look into it. Unfortunately Wien is a bit far to drive to, but it is a good reason to go there again, have not been there since I organised a study trip back in 1989 there and in Budapest. Thanks once more Regards Jeroen Mark Last Edited By: jeroenmark Mar 31 08 10:17 AM. Edited 1 times.
jeroenmark	Kurt Wittgenstein	#7	[-]
Posts: 31 Mar 31 08 10:13 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	About this officer and brother, he died probably by suicide october 27th, 1917 (or 1918 according other sources, october/november!?), what is the correct date? It is suggested he committed suicide while his hungarian troops deserted, does anyone know more precise details here. According Ludwig in a letter dated May7, 1925 he states that he and two brothers had been in the army, one brother was killed, he himself and the other were taken POW, in Russia and Italy, his mother for months not knowing whether they were death or alive.... Is there a Kurt Wittgenstein in the officers list? What was his service record? Regards Jeroen Mark
jeroenmark	identitaetskarte	#8	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 2 08 10:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have a question regarding soldiers id or identitaetskarte, how many and when and how were these documents issued, and on whose authority, by a new unit, transfer, loss, etcetera, or only centrally, at what level? One copy from Ray Monks book IDENTITATS- KARTE Charge K.u.K. Leutnant i.d.Res Name Ludwig Wittgenstein Truppenkorper k.u.k. F.A.R. No 5 Eingeteilt k.u.k(?) G.K.Bt No 1/11 datum ???? 30 Juni 1918 with stamp K.u.k Gebirgsartillerieregiment 11 So he first served with his mother unit 5th Regt and was detached to 5 Bt and later 1 Bt of GAR11? Other questions I have, who can help or advise where to look for types of searchlights in use with A-H army in 1914 in general. Fabricate, strength in lux, diameter, etcetera. Where were they used, searchlight detachements? Against balloons, to identify art targets in night? Also I would like to learn more about which different types of automobiles were used by A-H units in 1914, in Krakau area and surroundings, autodetachements, which units, transports, staff, artillery had cars? What type, is there a tank or transport museum in Wien with such information? Autodet der festung artillerie? Who can help here in any way? Thanks/Danke Dzenkuje/Koszonom szepen! Regards Jeroen Mark
klemen		#9	[-]
Posts: 485 Apr 5 08 5:11 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hello Jeroen, So he first served with his mother unit 5th Regt and was detached to 5 Bt and later 1 Bt of GAR11? 1914: Service with the 2nd Fortress Artillery Regiment (FsAR. 2) in Krakow 1914-1916 (don't know the exact year, check it in the book): transfered to the 4th Battery of the 5th Feldhaubitzregiment (later Field Artillery Regiment Nr. 5 alias FAR.5) from Olmütz. 1918: Transfered to serve with the 1st Battery of the k.u.k Gebirgsartillerieregiment 11 on the Italian Front. I believe F.A.R.5 stands for Feldartillerieregiment Nr.5 (FAR.5). The abbreviation 1/11 indicates that he was transfered to serve with the 1st Mountain Artillery Battery of the 11th Mountain Artillery Regiment (k.u.k Gebirgsartillerieregiment 11). Other questions I have, who can help or advise where to look for types of searchlights in use with A-H army in 1914 in general. Fabricate, strength in lux, diameter, etcetera. Where were they used, searchlight detachements? Against balloons, to identify art targets in night? Every decent book about k.u.k. Artillery contain also some useful information about searchlight detachments, types of searchlights and their role during Great War 1914-1918. Here are some useful books where you can find good, detailed and useful books about k.u.k. Artillery during Great War 1914-1918: URL1: http://www.buchhandlung-stoehr.at/asp/main.html Preis: € 95,00 Gewicht: 3,44 kg Farbbildband, 640 Seiten, ca. 1200 Fotos und Abbildungen, Leinen gebunden mit Schutzumschlag, Format: 29,9 cm x 26 cm Die österreichisch-ungarische Artillerie erfuhr im Zeitraum von 1867 bis 1918 sowohl in technischer als auch in organisatorischer Hinsicht bedeutende Veränderungen. Ausgehend vom Vorderladergeschütz der "Batterie der Toten" in der Schlacht bei Königgrätz 1866 wurde die Artillerie kontinuierlich modernisiert, entwickelte sich über die Geschütze M.1875, M.1880 und M.1899 hin zur Rohrrücklaufartillerie und schließlich zur Massenartillerie des Ersten Weltkriegs. Auf insgesamt 637 Seiten und mehr als 1.200 teilweise erstmals veröffentlichten Fotos, Skizzen und Abbildungen zeigt das Buch nicht nur Aussehen und Konstruktionsprinzipien der mehr als hundert eingeführten österreichischen Geschütze, sondern auch zahlreiche Prototypen sowie das zeitgenössische ausländische Artilleriematerial. Tabellen und Organisationsschemas beschreiben die Gliederung und Organisationsstruktur der Artillerie in den einzelnen Zeitabschnitten. Planskizzen und Beschreibungen erklären im Detail Schießverfahren und Artillerietaktik. Anhand von Farbdarstellungen werden die während des Ersten Weltkriegs verwendeten österreichisch-ungarischen Munitionssorten im Detail besprochen. Der Autor des Buches, Dr. M. Christian Ortner, ist Direktor des Heeresgeschichtlichen Museums in Wien. URL2: http://www.militaria.at/Default.aspx It is suggested he committed suicide while his hungarian troops deserted, does anyone know more precise details here. How do you know it were the Hungarian troops? Is there a polish or non polish member who is a specialist on Krakau Festung? Is there an artillery museum with bundesheer or elsewhere in Wien or Krakow? Here is the Polish forum with Polish researchers about Great War and Austro-Hungarian Armed Forces. They could probably knbow the answer to your questions. I don't. I have to confess that I am not that much interested in neither the fortresses nor artillery. URL: http://austro-wegry.info/index.htm
jeroenmark	Hungarian troops	#10	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 6 08 5:14 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Klemen How do you know it were the Hungarian troops? From Band XV (1999) by Diego Compagna, Verlag Traugott Bautz "1918 beging sein patriotisch gesinnnter Bruder Kurt an der Front Selbstmord, da die ihm unterstehende ungarische Truppe desertiert war." Thanks for your advise on Ortners book about Artillerie, I will order it to look into the matter. About issueing identitatskarten, can someone add to that, whose responsability and executive it was, companielevel, centrally or? Regards Jeroen Mark
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Austriacante		#11	[-]
Posts: 25 Apr 7 08 8:07 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dear Klemen, Ortner's book has also already been translated into English too. I confirm that is an excellent source!
jeroenmark	information on divisions	#12	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 20 08 9:46 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So from the book Young Ludwig thanks to McGuiness visits to the Kriegsarchiv we can learn that his (czech?) unit supported 24th Inf Div in 1916 (march-august?) and Honved (kroatian) 42th Inf Div in 1917. Who knows divisional histories for those divisions in that periode or the regimental histories of the constituting IR, which IR s? Are they written or published or is someone working on those? Also I am interested in the curiculum of artillerie officer training schools, for einjahriger and dreijahriger. Does someone have information on such curiculum from that periode, what did the trainee learn, when did they get promoted, and so on...? Who can help here? Danke sehr Jeroen Mark
klemen		#13	[-]
Posts: 485 Apr 21 08 9:26 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So from the book Young Ludwig thanks to McGuiness visits to the Kriegsarchiv we can learn that his (czech?) unit supported 24th Inf Div in 1916 (march-august?) and Honved (kroatian) 42th Inf Div in 1917.... The 24th Infantry Division consisted in mid-1916 of the 47th and 48th Infantry Brigades. 47th Infantry Brigade: IR.9 (Stryj) and IR.45 (Sanok) 48th Infantry Brigade: IR.10 (Przemysl) and IR.77 (Sambor) The 42nd (Croatian) Honved Infantry Division consisted in 1917 of the 83rd and 84th Honved Infantry Brigades. 83rd Honved Infantry Brigade: HIR.25 (Zagreb) and HIR.26 (Karlovac) 84th Honved Infantry Brigade: HIR.27 (Sisak) and HIR.28 (Osijek) We have no regimental history for none of these regiments. There is a fond about IR.77 in the Kriegsarchiv, but it contains irrelevant material, i.e. only Proviantur Material of the IV.Battalion of the 77th Infantry Regiment. Quite boring stuff. There is very little published about the Croatian Honved regiments in World War I. I only have an article about the battle of the Croatian Honved regiments at Okna and Carni Potok during the Brussilow's Offensive in 1916. The Croatian State Archive in Zagreb has a lčarge fond about 42nd HID, with nine boxes, but from what I could see it contains just provinatur documents, lists of decorated personnel and stuff like that. No battle reports, at least not in those two boxes, which I inspected. However, the Kriegsarchiv holds a manuscript about the fight of Croatian units during the Russian offensive at Stanislau-Jalusz in July 1917. Don'0t know if this is what are you looking for, though. If you decide to order it, I can look for my papers and give you the exact title and signature of the manuscript. This will enable you to order it via e-mail. About 24th Inf. Division I have nothing. Which corps was it in March 1916?
jeroenmark		#14	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 21 08 11:31 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Klemen About 24th ID McGuiness writes, which had recently (march 1916?, my words) been transferred to VII Army..... from where???? So no corps mentioned here... They fought at Okna, where is that? Yes I am interested to learn more about the battle at Okna. and Kolomea june 1916. About 42 HID locations and actions are listed at Lachowce(?),Rosulna(?),near Stanislau-Kalusz, Lidziany, Starumia(?), Kolomea, Knyaze, Czernowitz. So that Stanislau manuscript could be very interesting either. Furher in his 2005 second preface McG informs that Ludwig was trying to convert to the infantry in 1917, but more suggested is that he attended an aviation school. Any proof that he was lisited as such in any record, as aerial observer, or at any Flek (2,6 or 8?) or te Flosch? Unfortunately McG did not write which ID was supported by GAR11 at Piave front, 51th, 55th or ..th? under Conrad. Regards Jeroen Mark
klemen		#15	[-]
Posts: 485 Apr 21 08 11:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	About 24th ID McGuiness writes, which had recently (march 1916?, my words) been transferred to VII Army..... from where???? So no corps mentioned here... The Kriegsarchiv in Vienna holds two manuscripts about the Battle of Okna: 1.) Die Krise der 7. Armee nach der Schlacht bei Okna von 4.-10. Juni 1916 and 2.) Die Schlacht bei Okna von 4.-10. Juni 1916. They have also a manuscript about the Battle of Brody in summer 1916. They fought at Okna, where is that? Yes I am interested to learn more about the battle at Okna. and Kolomea june 1916. I didn't say they fought at Okna. I only said that the Croatian Honveds fought at Okna in 1916. I do not know whether the galician troops of the 24th Infantry Division were also engaged there. I am not much of an expert for the Russian Front 1914-1917. I believe Okna (Okno) is situated west of Plock. About 42 HID locations and actions are listed at Lachowce(?),Rosulna(?),near Stanislau-Kalusz, Lidziany, Starumia(?), Kolomea, Knyaze, Czernowitz. So that Stanislau manuscript could be very interesting either. I reckon so. Unfortunately McG did not write which ID was supported by GAR11 at Piave front, 51th, 55th or ..th? under Conrad. Taken from this website they seem to be supporting the 38th Honved Infantry Division. URL: http://www.austrianphilately.com/dixnut/dn6j2.htm#GBAR
jeroenmark	Okna	#16	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 21 08 12:10 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Klemen thanks for the location. How to get these three manuscripts on Okna and Stanislau, what will be rougly the costs? McG wrote at p241 that W was stationed at Okna. On p242 he continues...His division (24th, my words in brackets) was on left flank of XI corps and therefore just south of the Benigni group(soon after renamed VII corps and given W division,.... troops.., who however held out very well....in the battle of Okna. So I concluded that they fought at (i.e. near) Okna! Again thanks for your precise remarks Klemen Sincerely Jeroen Mark
jeroenmark	Okna 2	#17	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 21 08 12:18 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks again Klemen Unfortunately I can not support your suggestion on the location of Okna west of Plock, south of Wisla river. Indeed there is a village with that name. But the Okna I am looking for is just north of Dnestr river far more east... I guess even those manuscripts refer tho that location!? Jeroen Mark
klemen		#18	[-]
Posts: 485 Apr 22 08 9:16 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	How to get these three manuscripts on Okna and Stanislau, what will be rougly the costs? Your write a letter to the Kriegsarchiv in Vienna, giving in it the precise signature of the manuscrip(s) which you want to order. Then they send you a letter which you need to sign, put a date etc. and then send it back to the archive. Afterwards you wait a couple of weeks for them to do the photocopying whereupon one day you get a package from them with the photocopies and the bill. When this is complete you go to the local bank and transfer the necessary amount of money on their bank account. It is difficult to say what would be the cost of the photocopies as I haven't been able to find the information about how many pages dod they have. My wild guess is about 50 to 100 pages. I believe the price of an A4 photocopy is €0.30 and if you order several manuscripts which require more than half an hour of photocopying you also have to pay a special free of €30.00. McG wrote at p241 that W was stationed at Okna. On p242 he continues...His division (24th, my words in brackets) was on left flank of XI corps and therefore just south of the Benigni group(soon after renamed VII corps and given W division,.... troops.., who however held out very well....in the battle of Okna. So I concluded that they fought at (i.e. near) Okna! Yep, I guess this confirms that the 24th Inf. Division was at Okna as well. But the Okna I am looking for is just north of Dnestr river far more east... I guess even those manuscripts refer tho that location!? Even more probable. As I said yesterday I am not much of an expert on the Russian Front 1914-1917, so I thrust you have checked some basic WW1 books about the Eastern Front and checked up where is situated this village (city?) of Okna, where a great battle took place in June 1916. That's during Brussilow's offensive, isn't it?
jeroenmark	Okna 3	#19	[-]
Posts: 31 Apr 22 08 11:54 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So just arrived there Bucovinan village Ocna today is named Vikno, and Czarnpotok or Paraul Negru today is Rzhavintsy.... Still some 42 HID places to go.... Jeroen Mark
jeroenmark	manuscripts	#20	[-]
Posts: 31 May 19 08 11:26 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Klemen For some time I have the artillery book by Ortner, very interesting stuff, unfortunately it does not answer all my questions, very few info on balloon units, beleuchtungsabteilungen or army/airforce cooperation for artillery. Klemen could you help me by giving the exact titles and signatures from the manuscripts on the battles at Okna/czarnipotok and Stanislau-janusz? I would like to order them with kriegsarchive. Is the first one for order or did you get your copies somewhere else (Zagreb?) thanks a lot Jeroen Mark
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L Wittgenstein commanding officers and units

L Wittgenstein commanding officers and units